PAWS (Post Acute Withdrawal Syndrome)

[grendeldave]

Arc, the thing about PAWS is that it comes in waves which means that each wave passes. I can see it because I only get a certain fogginess in my head. Well lucky me, but I do appreciate that it is really distressing when it brings your mood down. I don't have any magic answer. You just have to hold on and keep on kicking through it. It will pass and each time you get through will make next time easier. It is so easy to give in now but that takes you straight back to the start and you have to do it all over again. Please don't throw your gains away. Grit your teeth and hang in there. It really will go away.

Dave

PS Have you seen your doc about depression? It is not always PAWS. Often we have an underlying condition which may need specific treatment.

[Arcturus]

Thanks, Dave,

I appreciate your words of encouragement. I can only hope this big wave passes soon and gives me a little reprieve, a little return of interest in life.

Yes, I certainly have an anxiety/depression disorder. And I have had it in the past - it's been diagnosed as genetic. I've been through just about every SSRI - prozac, paxil, zoloft - and even wellbutrin...but each one just made my situation worse. Zoloft actually brought on my first full-blown panic attack; wellbutrin raised my blood pressure to stroke levels; prozac and paxil made me feel like a zombie. Cognitive therapy has had no benefit - I was actually unable to stop drinking when I was seeing therapists. Only when I go it alone (except for BE) can I stop drinking as I have now. Coffee actually works better for my mood than anything, but it's still not that great.

Both my doctor and a psychiatrist he referred me to actually stated that I may have to stay on benzodiazepines for the rest of my life. THAT was not good news - not what I wanted to hear. They based this on my family history of high anxiety, depression, fatal alcoholism, and fatal drug abuse. Benzos are only making it possible for me to sleep and not have panic attacks or stay in a constant state of anxiety. But they leave me flat...just back in depression now. (To me, anxiety is just agitated depression.) Alcohol would sometimes give me short periods of happiness and high motivation - benzos, nothing like that - but of course, alcohol was also destroying my brain and my body at the same time. At the moment, I feel like I'm in a lose-lose situation.

I just hope that younger drinkers heed this and don't let alcohol become your source of happiness. It seems that it can eventually push out all other possible ways of being happy, in so many different ways...which a person may never get back...at least that's how it feels to me right now.

[grendeldave]

Arc, sometimes we have to acknowledge that we have a condition which means we need to stay on meds for the rest our lives, A common one is high blood pressure. Now come on, would we really run somebody down because they have to be on beta-blockers or diuretics for the rest of their lives? So it is with all health problems. Sometimes we can recover from a condition and sometimes we cannot. So we must then learn to manage it and live with it. There is no shame or weakness in that. What we do not need is alcohol. Leave it out and what are you left with? Problems. OK. But then you can start to address them. Drinking just blinds us and puts off the day we start learning how to cope. What are our choices? Drink ourselves into oblivion? Well some do and I did once think seriously about that but there I am and here you are too. We do want to get better. We can. Keep on trucking my friend. You need to seek answers but they do not lie in the bottom of a bottle. Stay off drinking and you give yourself a chance. That is all we need. A chance.

[Arcturus]

Thanks, Dave. You're so right. I get completely what you mean about a condition that requires meds for the rest of our lives. I've had too many family members drink themselves to horrible deaths, attempting to control their anxiety and depression without prescriptions. Sort of like a diabetic trying to survive without insulin.

The meds I hate to accept as long-term are far less likely to kill me that way, and may keep me alive, for without them, both my anxiety and blood pressure skyrocket. I had these disorders long before I ever took the benzos, so why would I expect them to magically be "gone" if I wean off of them? (As forums I've joined and left have suggested.) With my doctor and my psychiatrist telling me basically the same thing, that a benzo for genetic anxiety/depression disorders is often like insulin for diabetic -- while the alternative is alcohol and all the far greater damage it can cause....

But if ever I wanted to drink on top of this benzo, it would be right now. I got news a few hours ago that my best friend in the world died yesterday. She and I were like brother and sister -- far closer to me, much more like me, than my own sister (who has her own life and has little interest in me or the death of my friend). I'm feeling even lower than I did before. I have never felt more alone in the world. I can't believe I haven't gone out for a bottle of booze to facilitate my crying.

[max]

acrcatus i hear everything your saying, im sorry to hear about the loss of your friend try not to let this send u on a massive dring session easier said than done i no.
regarding benzo's i to am addicted to them bigtime , without them i dont think id be able to leave the house they are trying to wean me of them at the moment which im totally against , my dad was on them for life my brothers gunna be on them for life, so why cant i be .
the dr said its no good being on them longterm, we only get one crack at life so if im on them for life so be it? what i do need to learn is not to drink alongside them , it didnt take me long to suss out i could drink the night before before the take my benzo's the next day to keep the panic attacks away. this is a dangerous game which im sure many have played as u then risk double addiction.
ive been on benzos so long now they dont seem to have the same affect on me as they use to, until i read your post i never thought that it could be those that are making me feel flat.
one thing is for sure drinking on top of them is dangerous dont do it my friend i wish i hadnt

[grendeldave]

Arc, my heart reaches out to you. There are no words which can take the pain away. Just try to remember that we all have our bleakest hours and we can get through them. It hurts and we can feel so isolated but you are not alone. It may 'only' be cyber-space but there are real people who care on the other side of that screen.

[Arcturus]

Many, many thanks, Dave and Max,

Your words truly helped me make it another day without a drop of alcohol. Today is 35 days 100% AF. I got so very close to breaking that yesterday, already being in what feels exactly like the psychological aspects of PAWS and then the shock of losing my dear friend. But yes, Dave, I do feel the care coming through the screen from real human beings like you and Max, and others on the Second Month thread -- it really helped me stop and be strong, even in grieving.

Max, I also "figured out" exactly what you did -- that by just taking extra benzos, I could ease the really awful anxiety or panic that always "attacked" me the day after getting inebriated. I'm horrified now that I was doing that, knowing how very dangerous that was. And yes, since alcohol and benzodiazepines are "cross-tolerant" (raising the tolerance to one increases the tolerance to the other), I was escalating my tolerance to both at an alarming rate. Since I've stopped alcohol, I've been able to gradually taper my benzos down quite a bit, and I hope to reach an even lower dosage before I finally have to say: "This is the dosage that I will have to maintain to keep my anxiety disorder under reasonable control."

Again, my sincere thanks and appreciation for your priceless support. I'm honestly afraid that I would have gotten (sorry, US English) very drunk last night if I hadn't come to BE and read your posts, Dave and Max. Your words brought tears to my eyes, but good tears. You guys understand what I'm going through and you care. That gave me the strength I didn't have on my own.

Sincerely,

Arc

[jude999]

Arc, so sorry you are suffering the loss of your dear friend. You were very kind
to answer my questions and give your support recently ....just wanted you to know you are in my
thoughts. All my best Jude

[joop]

peeps, is PAW's from your experiences include irritability, lethargic and no motivation, heavy head? I'm coming up 3 months. Its like a mix of PMS and a hangover. (and its neither of those).

[smudge]

I would say yes to all of those. But I can also think of loads of other things that could cause the same or similar problems - anaemia? underactive thyroid? blood sugar problems? depression? vitamin or mineral deficiency?

I imagine there must be hundreds of possibilities. Perhaps a trip to the doc might be in order and you could ask for blood tests. I think it is probably safest to rule physical issues out before assuming it is PAWS.

[joop]

Well it started suddenly so 'll see if it lifts over the next few days.
I had a blood test 6 months ago, that only showed low vit D and they tested anaemia, thyroid and diabetes etc. I thought it was a bit OTT and then I got the snotty letter stating I was fine, take a supplement... I hate GP's.

Thanks Smudge.

[Givingitago]

Hope you feel better soon, Joop. Am with Smudge on the getting checked out thing, but if you've been there done that, how about a good mood diet? I think I might do this myself actually. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... -diet.html

[tell me something]

Thank you very much every one i stopped drinking beginning of january decided to go cold turkey but i guess thats the wrong way shouldve got some help. I started having really bad headaches and felt like i was having a really bad hangover even without drinking as i mentiones since beginning of january. I had a really bad panic attack last nite and also this morning wen i was in the waiting area at the health centre it lasted right up to about 5 minutes in wen i was speaking to my doc but she was really understanding she mentioned that it was paws and it happens but i was really worried coz i have headaches, confusion, paranoia, and sometimes in my head it feels like im havn a really bad trip like sm people do on drugs. Im not on any drugs havnt been much just tried sm weed once had a really bad trip so never tried it again each to their own eh! anyway gettin back to the point i found this page very usefull thank you every 1 jus 1question as my username suggests can i take paracetamol and how many mg to make my headaches go away im asking coz im also taking thiamine and vitamine b and iv heard paracetamol and anxiety and panic attaks dont all go well together silly me forgot to ask my doc but u guys are nex best thing

[smudge]

Hi

Headaches that never seem to go away are a common problem for most heavy drinkers when they give up alcohol. The first thing to point out is that dehydration is the commonest cause of headaches for everyone not just drinkers. So, if using pain relief worries you, before taking any pain relief drink a couple of glasses of plain water and see how you feel in 20 minutes or half an hour. You might find the headache goes away on its own.

As for your comment about paracetamol, I've never heard of a connection between paracetamol and panic/anxiety. I'm not a doctor though, so that doesn't mean much. Have you considered taking aspirin or ibuprofen? I realise you might not take them for a reason though. I always try to take whatever it says on the packet if I need pain killers. I get worried about taking any more.

Are you eating well? Are you taking any supplements? I just wrote this post in reply to someone asking for suggestions about how to feel a bit better while going through detox. It might be of interest to you.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=787&p=426384#p426384

Another post that you might find helpful is this one :

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42&start=320#p69636

It was written by a member of BE a long time ago but I think it is brilliant. I think I suffered for a few weeks longer than the author but I got there in the end.

Edit : Just realised you said you were taking thiamine and vitamin B, which is good news.

[Lottie38]

Urgh I think my paws is bad today. I feel so down and can barely move I'm so lethargic. Haven't felt like this since about week 3 or 4. This bad anyway.

[Mountainhare]

I'm with you Lottie, I'm not lethargic, but I feel down and proper wobbly I was wondering, do I need to get a prescription for B vitamins? You know the extra strong ones. I have the "normal" ones from our local supermarket, but I keep reading they are no good and the extra strong ones are the best. Smudge you're the expert in these matters! Will strong vit B help with PAWS?

[Gerard]

MH,

I have non-prescription B Complex tablets that contain 2500% of EU recommended daily amount of vit B12 and 3571% RDA of fit B1 and 3125% of B2 amongst others. Picked them up in Boots.

[smudge]

Hi MH,

High-dose B vitamins are easy to get, no prescription required as Gerard said. They are easily bought from places like pharmacists, GNC or Holland & Barrett.

I found these at GNC :

http://www.gnc.co.uk/high-potency-supre ... ets-2.html

And these at H & B :

http://www.hollandandbarrett.com/pages/ ... prodid=196

As to your question about whether B vitamins will improve your PAWS symptoms I'm afraid I can only fudge an answer to that.

If you are nutritionally healthy, with no deficiencies in vitamins or minerals, then it makes sense that everything in your life related to health will be improved and that includes PAWS symptoms. However, I think that any organisation (and that includes hospitals) that helps people through detox will always dose up alcoholics with high doses of Vitamin B Complex, thiamine and Vitamin C, and will expect those people to continue taking those pills for between 3 and 12 months. If you are positive that you have fixed all nutritional deficiencies that you may have had then obviously taking supplements is a waste of time and money. If you are in any doubt then buy the pills and take them. If you take the pills and then feel better you will never know whether the improvement would have taken place anyway. Sorry I can't be more helpful.

If you do some google searches for "nutrition for recovering alcoholics" or similar search terms you find pages where people are passionately pro-supplements and other pages where people are totally the opposite. I'm with the pro-supplements group - bet you would never have guessed.

[Mountainhare]

Thank you for the info, going to pick some up tomorrow

[hope22]

Hi guys,

Iv just been reading through this thread and read the articles you guys recommended although I have heard of PAWS and thought I had an understanding of it iv learnt a great deal more tonight. That has described a lot of symptoms I have been dealing with (sometimes thinking im going completely mad). I suppose it is very naive of me to think after years of abuse a few weeks sober every symptom is going to dissapear and everything will be rosy .

Iv also been meaning to get a good B vit for a while now and never got round to it (this will be top of my list of prioritys).

Thank you for this thread and all the advice given here

Hope xx